If I'm honest, I don't really know what to expect from a ref anymore!

[Dave Deacon]

It’s no wonder we are always in a state of the unknown when a referee blows his whistle!

Take these two examples I witnessed yesterday.

Incident No 1

Kevin Miller, goalkeeper for Bodmin Town, dives out at Glen Squires and brings the Wadebridge striker down. It’s in the penalty area, and Kevin is the last man, with a goal all but a certainty as Squires had pushed the ball past the ‘keeper.

The referee, Chris Stevens, awards a penalty, after getting the considered view of his assistant as well, but when it comes to a card – it’s a yellow (see below)!

The penalty must have been awarded because in their eyes either it was “a trip or attempt to trip an opponent”, or Kevin had “tackled the opponent to gain possession of the ball, making contact with the opponent before touching the ball”

Whichever : it constituted a “SENDING-OFF OFFENCE” as the forward was “denied an obvious goal-scoring opportunity”

Ok, the offence was in the very first minute of the match, but surely a red card.

The question was asked, would the decision had been the same if the away side had committed the crime?

Incident no. 2

In the Penzance v Torpoint evening match

Jonny Ludlam chases back a Torpoint player and deliberately “trips or attempts to trip an opponent” – he ran over 20 yards to do it! This was the only way he could stop the opponent.

Again a direct free kick was quite correctly awarded but the card produced by referee Marc Oldaker? After this quite blatant piece of foul play (it reminded me of the old days a bit) that could only either be construed as “serious foul play” or “being guilty of violent conduct” – a yellow!

No wonder the two managers then had a mini-barney with each other!

I don’t wish to see any player given a red, but these two examples only make it very confusing for both player and supporter! Today, in the three games I’m about to watch, I could well see less and yet the referee will produce more!

It’s still a great game though :yahoo:

[paul white]

got to agree with both of you we all know

a refs job is difficult with players cheating

and a baying home crowd, but some decisions ive seen this season

are a joke, players chopped in half and no card, yet question a decision and out comes the card,

i also feel refs become to friendly with older established players who they have known for years

and tend to show leinacy towards them, i guess all teams have been on the recieving end of both

good and bad decisions hopefully it all evens up in the end

[refsrus]

incident no 2 at penzance v torpoint your words trip an opponent is a cautionable offence and not a sending off it is not serious foul play or violent conduct ...

[hedgerow]

incident no 2 at penzance v torpoint your words trip an opponent is a cautionable offence and not a sending off it is not serious foul play or violent conduct ...

If it is denying the player a goal scoring opportunity, then by the letter of the Law it is a Red Card

[murome]

incident 1

the goalkeeper did bring down the forward but it was quite rightly a yellow card as the player had lost control off the ball prior to the keeper bringing him down with his arm and the ball was also traveling away from goal so it was not a obvisious goal scoring oppertunity and not a sending off

[oldasitgets]

We can see that this is one that depends on the referee's opinion. The full wording should be "If in the referee's opinion.... denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity."

That's exactly what we have refs for. They give their opinion. Players, clubs have to accept it. They are "arbiters" not bloody god.

Clearly, in the examples given, there's room for disagreement. And, different refs will give different opinions of the same thing. So what. We take what we're given and get on with it.

It happens all the time. He has to be able to read a minds to tell whether a player intends to handle the ball. He just has to give what he thinks.

As an aside, on ITV 4 the anchor man, referring to handball said , "of course it doesn't have to be intentional now." Has FIFA changed the laws? Could we have some arguments this weekend.

[refsrus]

incident no 2 at penzance v torpoint your words trip an opponent is a cautionable offence and not a sending off it is not serious foul play or violent conduct ...

If it is denying the player a goal scoring opportunity, then by the letter of the Law it is a Red Card

the offence happened in middle of field of play plenty of other players around

[refsrus]

incident no 2 at penzance v torpoint your words trip an opponent is a cautionable offence and not a sending off it is not serious foul play or violent conduct ...

The challenge was from behind, dangerous, pre-meditated, with no chance or intention of getting anywhere near the ball and has no place in the game, he should have seen red, end of.

agree pre meditated but it wasnt a challenge he just tripped him it was not a dangerous challenge if there was a law that could have been used then it would have been i can assure you of that

[refsrus]

Total rubbish.

If launching yourself into the opposing player from behind having chased him for 30 yards is not a challenge then I've never seen a challenge.

If you were there last night, or if you were one of the refs, then use your own name. In my opinion, the referee did not do what he should have done, it was a blatant and deliberate act of unsporting behaviour and was serious foul play, he shoud have seen red.

i believe i was there at no time did he launch himself i believe you where some 40 yards from incident looking through several players from behind i was stood about 5 yards from them and as previously stated if there was a law in which could have been applied to his offence other than a trip then i am sure he would have been sent off.

[Bigdawg]

I have watched a few Torpoint games in the past few weeks due to our fixtures being off, and how Josh Grant hasnt had his leg broken in pretty much each of them I dont know, i was suprised at the poor standard if refereeing. In the game last week, one of the players even screamed right in front of the ref 'Im going to f*****g snap you in half next time', and wasnt even talked to!!

Obviously this doesnt happen just at Torpoint games, but i feel the refs we've had in the ecl have been a lot more consistent than what iv seen in the south western league.

[Dave Deacon]

Sorry refsrus, perhaps you were actually too close! It was obvious to all those a little further away that the challenge was a deliberate trip and could well have been sent off under the law covering "SENDING-OFF OFFENCES" within section 1 :- guilty of serious foul play; or 2. guilty of violent conduct.

Yes it was a trip, but it was deliberate and from a long, long way behind and had no other thought in mind but to stop the Torpoint one way or another!

And Stuart, the situation with the undergarments just about sums it up, priorities in the wrong places!

[Guest Uncle Albert]

Dave, re Incident 1: Kevin Miller should have received a red card. He had already been beaten by the Wadebridge player when he tripped him (he didnt bring him down with his arm) and stopped a clear goal scoring opportunity. The player certainly had not lost control of the ball and had he not been tripped, he would have slid the ball into an empty net.

Referee Chris Stevens, who I have to say is by some distance the worst referee on the circuit, wasn't even going to give a penalty until he consulted his linesman, so how could he judge what card to give Miller?

As for the point about it being the first minute, it shouldn't matter when an incident like that happens; it's a red card offence, simple as that.

Yesterday afternoon I ventured to Lux Park to see a very entertaining Liskeard-Saltash game spoiled by another of the county's poor officials, Stephen Paul. Mr Paul possesses no common sense whatsoever, gets so many straightforward decisions wrong, and treats players, and supporters, like idiots. He was particularly offensive to one supporter who questioned, without swearing or raising his voice, one of his decisions as he left at half-time.

My question is: why do the worst referees in the county, over a long period of time, keep being given really big games to officiate? Yesterday, two big derby games were refereed by the two worst officials at this level.

Whoever is making these appointments should consider the type of fixtures he is giving Mr Stevens and Mr Paul. They are certainly not good enough to handle local derbies.

[Dave Deacon]

another of the county's poor officials, Stephen Paul.

I was actually very close to deciding to go onto Lux Park after Bodmin's match, glad I didn't now! :thumbsup:

[Guest Uncle Albert]

Dont get me wrong, Dave. It was a good game to watch at Lux Park - would have been even better if it had been officiated by a referee you didnt notice every other minute making appalling decisions.

[refsrus]

Sorry refsrus, perhaps you were actually too close! It was obvious to all those a little further away that the challenge was a deliberate trip and could well have been sent off under the law covering "SENDING-OFF OFFENCES" within section 1 :- guilty of serious foul play; or 2. guilty of violent conduct.

Yes it was a trip, but it was deliberate and from a long, long way behind and had no other thought in mind but to stop the Torpoint one way or another!

And Stuart, the situation with the undergarments just about sums it up, priorities in the wrong places!

sorry dave but if you are aware of the laws of association football a trip (no matter what sort) is a caution. i can fully understand

in the manner in which this one was committed it deserved a red card but the laws of association football a trip is a caution and no matter what else is said it was only a trip not a pretty one but a trip

[middle mans mate]

just sums up refs, no common sense, especially the two refs mentioned!

[refsrus]

just sums up refs, no common sense, especially the two refs mentioned!

dont think you need common sense a caution is a caution and not a sending off no matter how you or i feel

[hedgerow]

Sorry refsrus, perhaps you were actually too close! It was obvious to all those a little further away that the challenge was a deliberate trip and could well have been sent off under the law covering "SENDING-OFF OFFENCES" within section 1 :- guilty of serious foul play; or 2. guilty of violent conduct.

Yes it was a trip, but it was deliberate and from a long, long way behind and had no other thought in mind but to stop the Torpoint one way or another!

And Stuart, the situation with the undergarments just about sums it up, priorities in the wrong places!

sorry dave but if you are aware of the laws of association football a trip (no matter what sort) is a caution. i can fully understand

in the manner in which this one was committed it deserved a red card but the laws of association football a trip is a caution and no matter what else is said it was only a trip not a pretty one but a trip

God with numpties like you we do have a major problem. As I stated earlier, denying a goalscoring opportunity, whether it is just a trip or a bone crunching tackle, is a Red Card. I was not at the game but going by other comments on this thread it appears this player should have walked, apart from you. Think you need to read the rules again, you are way behind the times

[St Darren]

just sums up refs, no common sense, especially the two refs mentioned!

dont think you need common sense a caution is a caution and not a sending off no matter how you or i feel

so you're saying, if you're through on goal and a player trips you up, then it is only a booking? not a sending off? because its a trip??? or am I reading it totally wrong? because if that is the case, then thats the biggest load of I've heard on here!!

[murome]

dont no wat game you were watching uncle albert but the forward had lost control of the ball at least 10 yards in front of him going away from the goal sideways and i can asure you mr miller bought him down with his trailing arm no contact with his feet watsoever so no obvisious goal scoring oppertunaty = a yellow card not a red

[Dave Deacon]

Just to make things clear about the "trip" incident that refsrus has been debating with us ....the incident took place in the centre circle area - the Torpoint player was not through on goal.

so you're saying, if you're through on goal and a player trips you up, then it is only a booking? not a sending off? because its a trip??? or am I reading it totally wrong? because if that is the case, then thats the biggest load of I've heard on here!!

Yes sorry St Darren - you are reading it wrong.

[paul white]

as i have said before refs have difficult decisions to make but some refs want to be the star,

a good ref you rarely notice because they dont pull up petty errors some you would think

had turned up at there own party and wanted to be the main attraction.

a young torpoint player was booked recently because " i dont like the way you play" when the torpoint captain suggested

that you cannot give a booking for that reason he was told to go away i decide who i book, in the same game

a well respected defender for the opposing team talked his way out of at least 3 yellows for blatent trips/fouls

perhaps refsrus could explain which rule that comes under

[hedgerow]

as i have said before refs have difficult decisions to make but some refs want to be the star,

a good ref you rarely notice because they dont pull up petty errors some you would think

had turned up at there own party and wanted to be the main attraction.

a young torpoint player was booked recently because " i dont like the way you play" when the torpoint captain suggested

that you cannot give a booking for that reason he was told to go away i decide who i book, in the same game

a well respected defender for the opposing team talked his way out of at least 3 yellows for blatent trips/fouls

perhaps refsrus could explain which rule that comes under

He cannot explain the 'Rule' as he makes it up has he goes along

[baldy]

Perhaps the experts could explain why Distin, in the Everton v West Ham game, received a yellow card and not a red.

Stuff the technology, let's get the humans on the same page. And that was Howard Webb, England's WC referee!

[B Manning]

Which experts, the real ones or ones who think they are ?.

[Dave Deacon]

Aren't we all experts? Referees very rarely admit to making a mistake, and we're always right!!!!

Moving on slightly ...anyone know who's reffing the two County finals today?

[Mr unorthodox]

Admitidly come match day it is the referee's job to get desicions right but the referee is only human and mistakes will happen, he may see things in a different light etc, but end of the day he/ she is only human and will not get everything right. But then if you look to the top of the game look at the mistakes made at the PROFESSIONAL level. Just this weekend, Drogba offisde, Distin only a Yellow, Macheda hand ball, you can go on. But this just highlights that referee's LIKE MANAGERS AND PLAYERS MAKE MISTAKES!! The professionals get it wrong so what hope does that give the semi pro's a below?

[B Manning]

I agree Dave, we all have our own opinions that makes the great game of football what it is, but there is a difference between genuine mistakes and a difference of opinion. Being honest i will always admit any mistakes that i may make during a game, but what consitutes a mistake, in some peoples eyes it is only a difference of opinion and we must not forget that in the Laws of the Game it is only the referee`s opinion that matters to the actual game being played.

[bighairydave]

Dave a little late I know but the match officials for the county cup finals were:

Junior Cup- R: Craig Simpson AR: Martin Pethick & Simon Berryman 4O: Mike Carter

Senior Cup- R: Steve Annis AR: David Lobb & Justin Moses 4O: Steve Nute

Congratulations to all 8 officials. I am sure they had great games today and all the appoinments were greatly deserved.

[Mike Roberts]

Incident No.2 Penzance vs Torpoint match.

I think Ludsy would be the first to admit that he could have quite easily seen red, he was a couple more strides away from what managers would call 'a good foul' but after giving the ball away and running half the pitch to atone, I think he was just happy to stop Liam Thornton in his tracks at any cost (he was set to be the match winner at the time with a peach of a corner kick which went straight in). And yes some of his previous tackles might have been given yellows by most of the refs on the circuit these days........

However, I must jump to the defence of referee Marc Oldaker who made a refreshing change for the better on Friday night. I fail to understand why some referees will flash yellow cards around for supposed time wasting, players questioning suspect decisions, general clips and trips; then as previously mentioned not clamp down on the more dangerous injury threatening challenges.

Just to summarise why Mr Oldaker's performance was the best I've experienced this season:-

- He quickly smoothed over the farce of the base layers before the game.

- He tried to let the game flow, playing sensible advantage where he could, making it a spectacle for the 400 odd fans who had come to watch a game not a ref

- He told me before the game (as most refs do) that he would talk to me if a player was stepping out of line and dully did, instead of forgetting this little speech and reaching for his card immediately

- He spoke like a gentleman showing respect and not coming across as a man hell bent on becoming the centre of attention for the evening.

- Finally, just sensibly stated that any time wasting would just be added on at the end of the game, you wouldn't believe the fuss every week over this which is quite easily diffussed by this one clear statement.

So, Mr Oldaker was maybe over lenient on one incident in particular, but the fans were treated to more of a game and the players weren't left counting the cost of more needless bookings, I know what I would prefer!

[goodsense]

Firstly :- To all you lot who think that Refs don`t know the rules are right as there are not rules in football but LAWS...... 17 of them

If in these two incidents (which I did not see ) the Referees in question deem that both were not obvious goal scoring oppotunities.so a caution fits the bill . If they deem them to be, then I am sure the appropriate card would have been shown .

We as Referees get one shot at the discision and may on some occasions get it wrong ( I`m not saying either ref did this time ) But both Referees in question read these situations as they see them and deal with them occordingly.

I`m sure that if they would of flashed the red card that would of been wrong in most peoples eyes.

You don`t find Referees coming on this forum and slateing Joe Bloggs or his Team mates for missing open goals or player like a fool so give the refs a break and look at the bigger piture.

[Dave Deacon]

......not rules in football but LAWS

If there's one thing that lets down the refereeing fraternity, its telling us that over and over again! ;)

[jimmyliddicoat]

Dave Deacon who are you too come on here and slate Referee's - Without them Cornish football would not exist

Sure the referees make mistakes but who is anyone to moan

If the Referee made half as many mistakes as the average Cornish Footballer made then we'd have something to winge about.

Deacon , think about it - and anyone else , its easy to winge and give them a hard time . But The mistakes they make are minimal compared to the amount of bad touches , bad tackles , bad passes etc made by the Cornish Footballer.

At the end of the day its Cornish Football - Not the Premier League , These guys give up there saturdays for what ? £20 or so and you lot to nail them week in week out

[Goldeneye]

Surely the people slating referees have the solution in their own hands! They should become referees and then we would have no more mistakes or controversial decisions! Simples!

[Dave Deacon]

Deacon , think about it - and anyone else , its easy to winge and give them a hard time

I pay my entrance and so if feel the urge to comment on a game, either about the players, the ground, or even possibly the referee - I will do so thank you. :thumbsup:

[Andy Yeatman]

I agree that everyone makes mistakes and referees, above all, don't deserve criticism for honest mistakes. We all see incidents from different angles. After all the criticism usually works both ways for offences that refs penalise when we think they shouldn't be and offences that refs miss when we think they are the crime of the century.

But my 'pet hate' as spectator is watching games where referees seem to deliberately put themseleves in the spotlight from the kick-off.

On a similar note, I'd like to offer a word of praise for Steve Paul which I suppose will surprise some and particularly the players and managers in the recent Torpoint v Tavi match. Yes, there were some eccentric decisions but he seems to have changed one aspect of his refereeing. When giving yellow cards he was just waving it at the player concerned and getting on with the game. Another of my 'pet hates' in the past has been the length of time he spent lecturing players before cautioning them - the card and the £8 fine is probably sufficient.

[Ken Reed]

Well Dave - consider yourself told off.

:yahoo:

[goodsense]

We referees will always be to blame when a team loses or and discision goes against someones team , spectators wear rose coloured glasses and will always blame the easiest option which is the ref and this will go on and on till the end of time. How would the likes of Mr Deacon enjoy it on a Saturday if someone sat behind him ( after he has paid his money ) and derided him and abused him and just be damn well rude by slating everything he did that afternoon .

Take it from me it gets on your wick but I like all other Refs will be back next week to listen and read all the petty inane twaddle that come from that mass of tripe you lot call knowledge .I agree with Goldeneye if you think you can do better then take up the whistle and as you seem to know all the Laws you maybe able to change the world of football your self . Other wise just say thank you and let us Refs get on with our jobs. Nearly 20 years ago I berated a Ref at a game and he turned on me a said IF YOU COULD DO BETTER THEN DO IT OTHER WISE SHUT UP> ,, That was the time when I took up the whistle and relised it wasn`t that easy and I`m not saying I was any better than the Ref that day but I knew then that how enjoyable it was to Ref and again relised what a utter pratt I was and all those idiots who shouted at the ref really sounded. Everyone always seem to quick to berate what the man in the middle be it on the town recretion field or the stadium in the football league, Just a thought Mr Deacon what would you do on a Saturday if we all decided to just pack it up and not turn up?. Mmmmm I know slag us off more most proberly.

[doggyback]

ref's are just not consistent enough, yes everyone has a bad day we all understand that but if a player was to have a bad bad game or do something stupid he would receive punishment be it by getting drooped by his manager or being disciplined by the fa, however i feel that there is no way a ref can be corrected/try to improve his/her performance, yes I know there are officials going round and marking them on there game, also a lot of ref's will not even tell you what the offence was they just see it as descent and dish out the yellow or red card, surely if there was better communication between the ref and the players surely it would be more pleasant for everyone evolved, just look at rugby the ref's talk to the players and gain there respect, I say football ref's or the fa should take a look at how the rfu train there ref's as for some reason they get far more respect and make less mistakes! on another point the ref we had on sat in the dobwalls peranporth game i thought he was very good!

[Dave Deacon]

I always know I've upset someone when I get called "Mr"

How would the likes of Mr Deacon enjoy it on a Saturday if someone sat behind him ( after he has paid his money ) and derided him and abused him and just be damn well rude by slating everything he did that afternoon .

I've experienced it and I agree it does hurt, but all we really ask for is more consistency. Doesn't that make sense goodsense? :clapper:

[goodsense]

doggyback i totally agree communication is the up most thing that a Ref must do yes, some don`t but most do, I have learnt over the years that if you let players know what the offence is for they don`t argue that much, but there are quite a few players that just don`t listen and then thats when we as Refs have to brandish cards . How many times do I try and have the friendly quiet word with a player to try and smooth the situation down but just get a mouth full of abuse back then I have to deal with the player which is then deem to be petty on the refs part and the circle goes round . We as Refs are assessed though out the season and if we don`t come up to sratch are delt with I know not many don`t get suspended like players but that the Fa`s job . We as Refs are our own biggest critics and yes at times I myself have got into my car to drive home and banged the steering wheel knowing that I wasn`t to good that day or I made a bad discision during the game.We don`t really need to be told. Yes there are some Refs that just believe that they are never wrong butr I bet there are more players who think that they are never wrong too. Mr Deacon or my I call you Dave Consistency is a big big issue and is the bane of pratically all players, managers and fans and if I knew how to make sure every Ref in the hole of britian were singing from the same hymn sheet life would be better for all of us , the only thing I can do is be consistent myself when officiating a match be it consistently good or consistently bad just the same for bith teams. In a ideal world people would come on here are not moan at refs but help by picking out the problems they see and ask what could be done to put them right :D

[NORTH DEVON DWELLER]

I have to say that we are all quick enough to jump on the backs of referee's (myself included) however i must say that the ref for the Withy/Cully game was superb. He let the game flow and instead of showing his cards everytime he had a chance talked to the players instead and only showed a couple of yellow cards to Cully players for constant dissent. so well done Larry Cousins. :clapper:

[stewart cawte]

Goodsense,

That's exactly what i and the club did do, was write a letter regarding a certain young individual and had no responce from the hierachy They are very quick in sending yellows in that we cannot appeal against and then a red is not worth appealing against as you know, i know, that they have already made there minds up

I personally wrote regarding the ref and expressed MY opinion that i think he needs more training and not listen to his father on the sidelines and then make decisions ( we won this game before you make assumptions)

You guessed it, no responce at all back from those in glass houses and the ref in question goes on to referee a local derby at premier level and has another shocking game. Now this cannot be right??

We as a club always write a comment to the CCFA telling them about the referee we had on the day whether it is praising them or not. I/we have written and commented about the good referee's we have had this season (yourself included)...i wonder if you get to hear about these kind words, and yes, we have written and told them about the few, and i mean the few that are whistle happy hitlers who will not talk to players/manager's, collect there expensives not have a drink in the clubhouse (not that they have too, but always nice to build rapports with them and talk about the game civilised) and drive home thinking they had a good game.

I ask for consistancy at all levels and it still angers me now knowing that the referee's are untouchable and we as players/managers/clubs cannot do anything about it

We all have opinions and that is what makes this topic, but i can only ask from all players/managers/spectators and of course REFEREE's that when you don your boots this saturday just have a little think about how we act,play,speak to each other...ME INCLUDED and maybe the reports about ref's,players,managers on this forum will out way the reports regarding the poor performances of the man/woman in the middle

Good luck to all :clapper: