Forcing clubs into promotion

[pastyman]

There is much debate on this and other forums relating to promotion up the football pyramid.

We all have our personal opinions, but in the majority of cases, we have no knowledge whatsoever of the financial state of the clubs concerned. There can be no doubt, none of the clubs within the Carlsberg South West Peninsula are "awash" with money. Most, doubtless, are "surviving", but not "prospering".

Should anyone and I mean anyone, "force" any club into moving up the pyramid and perhaps into financial ruin?

With the reorganistation within the pyramid, clubs could be expected to travel further afield. This would obviously increase costs.

I have seen a suggestion of a Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and Somerset League. On the Surface this might sound a good idea, but there is still a mighty 184 miles for Falmouth Town to travel to the eastern section of Dorset or Somerset.

Personally, I feel the existing league structure is a good and allows me to travel to any away games without "giving up" all my Saturday.

I would be very interested in the views of the players themselves.

[hoppit]

There is much debate on this and other forums relating to promotion up the football pyramid.

We all have our personal opinions, but in the majority of cases, we have no knowledge whatsoever of the financial state of the clubs concerned. There can be no doubt, none of the clubs within the Carlsberg South West Peninsula are "awash" with money. Most, doubtless, are "surviving", but not "prospering".

Should anyone and I mean anyone, "force" any club into moving up the pyramid and perhaps into financial ruin?

With the reorganistation within the pyramid, clubs could be expected to travel further afield. This would obviously increase costs.

I have seen a suggestion of a Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and Somerset League. On the Surface this might sound a good idea, but there is still a mighty 184 miles for Falmouth Town to travel to the eastern section of Dorset or Somerset.

Personally, I feel the existing league structure is a good and allows me to travel to any away games without "giving up" all my Saturday.

I would be very interested in the views of the players themselves.

A mighty 184 miles? The reason for a pyramid system is for teams who have real ambition to gain promotion. What is the point of paying players expenses just to stay at level 6? Clubs who don't take promotion should be down graded. I think a Cornwall Senior League would be the answer for people who reckon 184 miles is a long way. We can't help our location we just need to deal with it. Why do we always use distance as an excuse?

[pastyman]

There is much debate on this and other forums relating to promotion up the football pyramid.

We all have our personal opinions, but in the majority of cases, we have no knowledge whatsoever of the financial state of the clubs concerned. There can be no doubt, none of the clubs within the Carlsberg South West Peninsula are "awash" with money. Most, doubtless, are "surviving", but not "prospering".

Should anyone and I mean anyone, "force" any club into moving up the pyramid and perhaps into financial ruin?

With the reorganistation within the pyramid, clubs could be expected to travel further afield. This would obviously increase costs.

I have seen a suggestion of a Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and Somerset League. On the Surface this might sound a good idea, but there is still a mighty 184 miles for Falmouth Town to travel to the eastern section of Dorset or Somerset.

Personally, I feel the existing league structure is a good and allows me to travel to any away games without "giving up" all my Saturday.

I would be very interested in the views of the players themselves.

A mighty 184 miles? The reason for a pyramid system is for teams who have real ambition to gain promotion. What is the point of paying players expenses just to stay at level 6? Clubs who don't take promotion should be down graded. I think a Cornwall Senior League would be the answer for people who reckon 184 miles is a long way. We can't help our location we just need to deal with it. Why do we always use distance as an excuse.

Ok HOPPIT, nothing wrong with having an opinion.

[TRUE FAN]

Very good point Pastyman, When the economy is back on track and clubs refuse to take promotion Hoppit has a point. Until then you need to live in the real world. I've just seen the news Rangers/Portsmouth, how many clubs do you want to see throw away their history and go into non existence , not me! No, lets let things pick up with the economy first and then see what happens.

Chris George in very cold Canada. PS Good luck to all teams.

[THE BALD ONE]

Is it fair on the other clubs if promotion is not taken ? If you are in the top league and can not get promoted like the Barclays Premier league that is different . The same team winning each season in this league seems wrong !

[hoppit]

There is much debate on this and other forums relating to promotion up the football pyramid.

We all have our personal opinions, but in the majority of cases, we have no knowledge whatsoever of the financial state of the clubs concerned. There can be no doubt, none of the clubs within the Carlsberg South West Peninsula are "awash" with money. Most, doubtless, are "surviving", but not "prospering".

Should anyone and I mean anyone, "force" any club into moving up the pyramid and perhaps into financial ruin?

With the reorganistation within the pyramid, clubs could be expected to travel further afield. This would obviously increase costs.

I have seen a suggestion of a Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and Somerset League. On the Surface this might sound a good idea, but there is still a mighty 184 miles for Falmouth Town to travel to the eastern section of Dorset or Somerset.

Personally, I feel the existing league structure is a good and allows me to travel to any away games without "giving up" all my Saturday.

I would be very interested in the views of the players themselves.

A mighty 184 miles? The reason for a pyramid system is for teams who have real ambition to gain promotion. What is the point of paying players expenses just to stay at level 6? Clubs who don't take promotion should be down graded. I think a Cornwall Senior League would be the answer for people who reckon 184 miles is a long way. We can't help our location we just need to deal with it. Why do we always use distance as an excuse.

Ok HOPPIT, nothing wrong with having an opinion.

Pastyman, do you think that a Cornish Senior league would be a good idea? Then teams such as Bodmin who show no ambition could play in that. Clubs could state their intentions in the summer, the ones with ambition in SWPL those without in the Cornish league. Better than the farce now.

[DanBlazey]

It's not about "forcing" anybody to do anything. It's about having a fluid pyramid system for promotion and relegation between step 5 and 6 in the south west (I'm pretty sure we are the only part of the country that does not have this).

The sooner this is in place, the better the chance we have of Cornish sides emulating Truro and starting to climb the pyramid. The big fear at the moment is that sides fear they will be going it alone.

[pastyman]

It's not about "forcing" anybody to do anything. It's about having a fluid pyramid system for promotion and relegation between step 5 and 6 in the south west (I'm pretty sure we are the only part of the country that does not have this).

The sooner this is in place, the better the chance we have of Cornish sides emulating Truro and starting to climb the pyramid. The big fear at the moment is that sides fear they will be going it alone.

In view of the situation "you club" in DanBlazey, I am more than suprised with your comments.

IF, a club wishes to progress up the pyramid, well best of luck to them, but clubs should not feel obligated.

It would be good to have a comment by Bodmin Town, as to WHY they do not wish to climb the pyramid.

Again I ask, what are the feelings of the players, do they wish to travel larger distances.

[MOUNTAINEER]

The average attendance in the South West Peninsula Leagues was equally split when I checked them out about 6 weeks ago, all three leagues averaged from 58 to 60, no spare cash when those figures are taken into account, not enough to put a team on the pitch for a HOME fixture, definately into the RED when playing away.

Admittedly averages are not a be all to end all jardstick, the successful teams attract considerably more and the not so good teams in some cases are lucky to have a dozen or so watching, finance will always be a problem.

There you have it a reason many teams lack ambition, however, I believe teams that win the league they are competing in should be promoted but help should be given by the F.A through a pre arranged scheme to compensate promoted clubs should they encounter increased travel costs as a result.

I live in the South East, on Saturday Truro City play at Dover Athletic, as a 76 year old I purchased a Senior Railcard for £26, that allows me a third off travel, for me to get to Dover at the reduced rate the cost is £26.20, admission standing for OAP's is £9.00, an extra £1.50 to sit, I think their programme is £2.50 and that is before food and drink - I must be mad because I have only missed two Truro away games this season, both midweek.

I have sympathy with Pastyman when he mentions following his team away from home but let's be realistic who want's to see their team winning by cricket scores like Truro City were when shooting up the leagues, I don't, I followed Truro City to some clubs and was too embarrassed to get excited because we had so much and they had so little to offer both on or off the field, Truro City are not pulling up trees in the Conference but I am enjoying the football because every game is a battle to win a point is an event, to win three is utopia.

The million dollar question has to be:-

What would the reaction have been on here if Mr Heaney had STUCK in the Peninsula League and won it SIX seasons on the trot?

The moaning would never have ended but teams are doing that, refusing promotion in the hope of setting up a sequence of Championships, it would only take one person to come into Cornwall and finance a club in a simillar fashion to Truro but instead of advancing like City did, they stay put, it could put an end to the competition for the SWPL Premiership.

[Nemesis]

God help Cornish Football if another Heaney comes along !

If clubs do not want to go up, then perhaps a Cornwall Senior League taking the best of the ECPL & Combo and those who have no ambition to go up is a better option. If clubs have no plans to go higher than step 6, then perhaps they should move aside and let those that do make some headway.

[TRUE FAN]

If some clubs feel they are being held back because they can't win the league,look at their manager. Stop saying the Bodmins win because they spend more money, if they can't get above Bodmin or Buckland to win the league they wont do very well in the step up. I wouldn't like some of the contributors to run my business or my house hold budget!

Keep on with your approach Gilby, you seem to have the loyalty of your players, and Bodmin don't step aside just to please some people. Most of the clubs wouldn't take promotion ether.

I would love to see you move up when you're sure the right monies are in place.

[skippy]

God help Cornish Football if another Heaney comes along !

If clubs do not want to go up, then perhaps a Cornwall Senior League taking the best of the ECPL & Combo and those who have no ambition to go up is a better option. If clubs have no plans to go higher than step 6, then perhaps they should move aside and let those that do make some headway.

In an ideal world, there should be a Cornwall Senior league with perhaps Plymouth based clubs included above the ECPL and Combo. Could have a similar league for Devon at the same level, being fed by the South Devon / Devon & Exeter / North Devon leagues.

[Argyle Fan]

I think I'm right in saying that if the Peninsula League had not been formed then Cornish teams would no longer have been able to enter the Vase and the FA Cup.

As far as the ambition thing is concerned, what if the FA agreed to remove the requirement to finish in the top two in order to apply for promotion?

Then teams who lack the financial clout to finish in the top two but have the ambition to give the higher league a go would not be held back by the "big fish small pond" clubs.

[The Train]

Every player wants to play as high as possible unless they can't due to family or work reasons. True Fan.... although a club may not Finnish above bodmin doesn't mean that they wouldn't be a force in the league above. 9 time out of 10 if a club at higher standard comes calling its hard to turn them down. For example take Bodmin with a number of players based in the Plymouth area. If another team from the Plymouth gets promoted, they are guaranteed to come calling for the better players in the league they have just been promoted from. If your a player that lives in the Plymouth area the chance of playing a higher standard of football on your doorstep would be hard to turn down, and before they know it teams like Bodmin will have to start looking elsewhere for players due to all the players moving on with the clubs that actually have ambition.

[NORTH DEVON DWELLER]

God help Cornish Football if another Heaney comes along !

If clubs do not want to go up, then perhaps a Cornwall Senior League taking the best of the ECPL & Combo and those who have no ambition to go up is a better option. If clubs have no plans to go higher than step 6, then perhaps they should move aside and let those that do make some headway.

In an ideal world, there should be a Cornwall Senior league with perhaps Plymouth based clubs included above the ECPL and Combo. Could have a similar league for Devon at the same level, being fed by the South Devon / Devon & Exeter / North Devon leagues.

Is this not what we had before the SWPL with the Devon County League and the South Western League :unsure: :unsure:

[TRUE FAN]

Every player wants to play as high as possible unless they can't due to family or work reasons. True Fan.... although a club may not Finnish above bodmin doesn't mean that they wouldn't be a force in the league above. 9 time out of 10 if a club at higher standard comes calling its hard to turn them down. For example take Bodmin with a number of players based in the Plymouth area. If another team from the Plymouth gets promoted, they are guaranteed to come calling for the better players in the league they have just been promoted from. If your a player that lives in the Plymouth area the chance of playing a higher standard of football on your doorstep would be hard to turn down, and before they know it teams like Bodmin will have to start looking elsewhere for players due to all the players moving on with the clubs that actually have ambition.

If that was the case The Train, the Players that team had would have every right to say to the manager thanks for your loyalty to us " players always being told they are not loyal", Don't call us if it goes wrong and you come back down with a large dept! Bodmin's players stay loyal to them because of the way Gilby treats them, not the miss quotes quoted on here of large amounts of money! Chris.

[Nemesis]

God help Cornish Football if another Heaney comes along !

If clubs do not want to go up, then perhaps a Cornwall Senior League taking the best of the ECPL & Combo and those who have no ambition to go up is a better option. If clubs have no plans to go higher than step 6, then perhaps they should move aside and let those that do make some headway.

In an ideal world, there should be a Cornwall Senior league with perhaps Plymouth based clubs included above the ECPL and Combo. Could have a similar league for Devon at the same level, being fed by the South Devon / Devon & Exeter / North Devon leagues.

Is this not what we had before the SWPL with the Devon County League and the South Western League :unsure:

But 3 clubs have now shown they want to progress, it's a long time since anyone in the old SWL did that, lessons learnt methinks. Keep step 6 for those that make the right noises about going to Step 5, if they fail to take promotion at the 2nd opportunity, relegate them, simple.

[THE BALD ONE]

God help Cornish Football if another Heaney comes along !

If clubs do not want to go up, then perhaps a Cornwall Senior League taking the best of the ECPL & Combo and those who have no ambition to go up is a better option. If clubs have no plans to go higher than step 6, then perhaps they should move aside and let those that do make some headway.

In an ideal world, there should be a Cornwall Senior league with perhaps Plymouth based clubs included above the ECPL and Combo. Could have a similar league for Devon at the same level, being fed by the South Devon / Devon & Exeter / North Devon leagues.

Is this not what we had before the SWPL with the Devon County League and the South Western League :unsure:

But 3 clubs have now shown they want to progress, it's a long time since anyone in the old SWL did that, lessons learnt methinks. Keep step 6 for those that make the right noises about going to Step 5, if they fail to take promotion at the 2nd opportunity, relegate them, simple.

Spot on Nemesis ,,,,,,,,,,,,, :clapper:

[Cornish-Ref]

I think a point everyone is missing is - why pay players in the SWPL full stop? This is the real reason that clubs suffer financially across football in general (including Rangers!!!)....... There is no loyalty any more, if players get a sniff of £5.00 then they're off...!!!!!

[St Darren]

how far does ambition go though??

Whats the benefit of playing 3 leagues higher than what clubs are at the moment? there's certainly no financial benefit of any real concern. Clubs can ask for sponsorship but what do sponsors get out of it? not exactly massive exposure!

Personally I think clubs are crazy to wish to go higher and head out of the South West for football. Somerset is just about doable, any further than that will never be sustainable.

[hoppit]

Every player wants to play as high as possible unless they can't due to family or work reasons. True Fan.... although a club may not Finnish above bodmin doesn't mean that they wouldn't be a force in the league above. 9 time out of 10 if a club at higher standard comes calling its hard to turn them down. For example take Bodmin with a number of players based in the Plymouth area. If another team from the Plymouth gets promoted, they are guaranteed to come calling for the better players in the league they have just been promoted from. If your a player that lives in the Plymouth area the chance of playing a higher standard of football on your doorstep would be hard to turn down, and before they know it teams like Bodmin will have to start looking elsewhere for players due to all the players moving on with the clubs that actually have ambition.

If that was the case The Train, the Players that team had would have every right to say to the manager thanks for your loyalty to us " players always being told they are not loyal", Don't call us if it goes wrong and you come back down with a large dept! Bodmin's players stay loyal to them because of the way Gilby treats them, not the miss quotes quoted on here of large amounts of money! Chris.

How much more would it cost to move up a league? If the Bodmin players are as loyal as you say they could donate a fiver or tenner of their expenses towards travelling , problem solved no excuses. If teams don't spend beyond their means no need to be in debt. Bodmin and several other Cornish clubs probably pay higher expenses than some Western League Premier clubs anyway, so no real excuses other than lack of ambition. It must seem as if i am having a go at Bodmin but thats not the case, i'm just passionate about Cornish football and want to see our best teams progress and at the moment Bodmin are our best team with the best opportunity so it just baffles me. Please explain why there has to be a large debt if you get relagated.

[TRUE FAN]

Every player wants to play as high as possible unless they can't due to family or work reasons. True Fan.... although a club may not Finnish above bodmin doesn't mean that they wouldn't be a force in the league above. 9 time out of 10 if a club at higher standard comes calling its hard to turn them down. For example take Bodmin with a number of players based in the Plymouth area. If another team from the Plymouth gets promoted, they are guaranteed to come calling for the better players in the league they have just been promoted from. If your a player that lives in the Plymouth area the chance of playing a higher standard of football on your doorstep would be hard to turn down, and before they know it teams like Bodmin will have to start looking elsewhere for players due to all the players moving on with the clubs that actually have ambition.

If that was the case The Train, the Players that team had would have every right to say to the manager thanks for your loyalty to us " players always being told they are not loyal", Don't call us if it goes wrong and you come back down with a large dept! Bodmin's players stay loyal to them because of the way Gilby treats them, not the miss quotes quoted on here of large amounts of money! Chris.

How much more would it cost to move up a league? If the Bodmin players are as loyal as you say they could donate a fiver or tenner of their expenses towards travelling , problem solved no excuses. If teams don't spend beyond their means no need to be in debt. Bodmin and several other Cornish clubs probably pay higher expenses than some Western League Premier clubs anyway, so no real excuses other than lack of ambition. It must seem as if i am having a go at Bodmin but thats not the case, i'm just passionate about Cornish football and want to see our best teams progress and at the moment Bodmin are our best team with the best opportunity so it just baffles me. Please explain why there has to be a large debt if you get relagated.

Hi Hoppit, I think in most cases we don't read what each other are actually saying. I accept if you say you're not just having a go at Bodmin, but a lot of what is said on a lot of topics are people saying things that they don't know to be true. Some of the things,maybe most, are not! First, i think if people are honest they can't say the players are not loyal at Bodmin and believe me their players are not the highest paid in their league. You may be right, if a team takes promotion and spends no more money than they did beforeC apart from extra travel, and come back down with very little dept. If a team wants to do well and spends without the funds in place, a plan that must, in my opinion be in place for at the least 5 to 10 years. No one attracts a big enough gate in Cornwall, not even Truro. I'm not saying it can't be done, I am saying i can't see how my self, especially with the the state of the economy at the moment, I don't want to go back and forth on this, but i would like to hear the ideas of the contributors how they can suggest it be done, not by taking a fiver from players, from my experience Bodmin do about as much as they can with sponsors.

[NORTH DEVON DWELLER]

The average attendance in the South West Peninsula Leagues was equally split when I checked them out about 6 weeks ago, all three leagues averaged from 58 to 60, no spare cash when those figures are taken into account, not enough to put a team on the pitch for a HOME fixture, definately into the RED when playing away.

Admittedly averages are not a be all to end all jardstick, the successful teams attract considerably more and the not so good teams in some cases are lucky to have a dozen or so watching, finance will always be a problem.

There you have it a reason many teams lack ambition, however, I believe teams that win the league they are competing in should be promoted but help should be given by the F.A through a pre arranged scheme to compensate promoted clubs should they encounter increased travel costs as a result.

I live in the South East, on Saturday Truro City play at Dover Athletic, as a 76 year old I purchased a Senior Railcard for £26, that allows me a third off travel, for me to get to Dover at the reduced rate the cost is £26.20, admission standing for OAP's is £9.00, an extra £1.50 to sit, I think their programme is £2.50 and that is before food and drink - I must be mad because I have only missed two Truro away games this season, both midweek.

I have sympathy with Pastyman when he mentions following his team away from home but let's be realistic who want's to see their team winning by cricket scores like Truro City were when shooting up the leagues, I don't, I followed Truro City to some clubs and was too embarrassed to get excited because we had so much and they had so little to offer both on or off the field, Truro City are not pulling up trees in the Conference but I am enjoying the football because every game is a battle to win a point is an event, to win three is utopia.

The million dollar question has to be:-

What would the reaction have been on here if Mr Heaney had STUCK in the Peninsula League and won it SIX seasons on the trot?

The moaning would never have ended but teams are doing that, refusing promotion in the hope of setting up a sequence of Championships, it would only take one person to come into Cornwall and finance a club in a simillar fashion to Truro but instead of advancing like City did, they stay put, it could put an end to the competition for the SWPL Premiership.

Official Attendance Figures Posted On SWPL Website

As of 14th February

Premier

Total 21834

Average 96.18

East

Total 10432

Average 58.60

West

Total 12282

Average 67.48

Don't know where you got all three leagues averaged from 58-60 because these figures have stayed relatively the same all season.

[MOUNTAINEER]

N.D.D

I did say my figures were about 6 weeks old, it was before Christmas so crowds go up for Xmas/New Year, one game at St Austell (Floodlights) raised their average by 48 (126 to 174), we are both on the same wavelength, in the Division One East and West divisions we are almost agreeing, allowing for festive variations and that St Austell game I imagine the Premier division 'currently' average around 80 which shows an increase from when I did my figures, that has to be good but it only confirms what I was indicating at the time, it is difficult for all clubs to operate with the finances available to them.

Using St Austell's attendances people can judge the variations 188,95,113,115,132,78,182,109,556, the three highest attendances were v Falmouth (188), Bodmin (182) and Buckland (556) with out Buckland the average is 126 with it 174 - If there was NO St Austell the number of local people disappointed would not be 126 the number would be THOUSANDS people stay at home and only miss something when it is not there.

I know a club in step 5 that has 25 kids teams, over 700 lads playing football but their Parent clubs attendance rarely reaches 35.

N.D.D - I fail to understand your thinking when disputing my figures that were relevant when obtained, taking Yours or mine it still shows the dire need to get more people through the gates at ALL clubs. Surely the thing we should all be more concerned about is the survival of football at a Local Level rather than points scoring.

I think you checked my figures because you may not have thought they were as bad as they are, between us I think we have proven how ludicrous it is to pay players for playing at any level below Step 4 of footballs Pyramid.

[hoppit]

I think expenses are generally paid by outside sources as opposed to money earned on the gate. Most officials are in the region of £100 now so that would take a fair chunk of the gate.

[Tynan's_Dad]

A point that nobody seems to have considered re: travel.

Let's just say that the team finishing top was automatically promoted. Most people agree that any team finishing in the top half of the SWPL would at least be competitive enough to survive at the next level.

That would mean, within five years there would quite possibly be 5 teams that are currently in the SWPL within the next level. Within 10-15 years it would even itself out nicely and, whilst there would still be a few long distance matches, there would also be a significant number of local games.

Perhaps the prize money for winning the league should be renamed as promotion money and only given to those who go up?