Club Linesman - What we can and cannot assist with?

[Mr Cornwall]

This is a debate which will have views from Managers, Players, Club Assistants, League representatives and Referee's themselves.

The can's and can't do's in a League or Cup game.

Different referee's give out different instructions before the game of what a club assistant should and should not assist with or give decisions for. Some weeks, assistants are asked that they give what they see, mainly in terms of pushes, pulls, trips etc... some weeks, we get told not too. Each week, a club Manager gets annoyed if some decisions a referee has not seen to give, then turns to the club assistant who has a clear view of things, who again, may not have been given an instruction to give what they say, apart from bring it to the referee's attention when possible but then later becomes irrelevant.

I get frustrated when I here a defender from an opposite side contend against a decision, for example, a ball going out of play behind the goal for a goal kick, the player contending that the club assistant wouldn't know as he/she wasn't keeping up with play (even though they were) and then the player understand he is not keeping up with play either as he is 30 odd yards down the line. To ignore it is easy, but for a player to think before they speak is another.

In some games, I have had referee's provide buzzer flags for club assistant's and some without. Do you think that all league games, the buzzer's should be introduced?

It would be interesting to hear your view (as a player, how you feel if club assistants were to have responsibility to give decisions in games, which will lead to less abuse towards them.) (Manager's. You can see the game from a different view. You can see all the going's on that a referee or assistant may miss and then bring it to the attention of the game, at times in the inappropriate manner). (Club Assistants, how they feel if they were to be given a little extra training on being given extra responsibility to ensure less abuse on decisions that know full well you may give if you were a referee)?

It would be interesting to know how the officials got on in the Launceston v Callington Town game. I commend those who did assist the referee's in that game if they were to be appointed by the club's themselves

[Guest]

Encho is a qualified referee.

[Mr Cornwall]

Keith, as a supporter, linesmen I get told are generally ok. At the end of the day they did their job. But again, it's the abuse from Managers (if this was the case) to the referee and assistant's. I do not mind dugouts shouting, as long as it is instructions from club manager's or players, as long as it is not about decision's or things a referee or assistant should of seen and made a decision about.

Lee Beer is Callington through and through and for the game in question it would be unusual for me to accept Lee would be that foul mouthed but if this is the case then extra action and management coaching needs to be introduced. Maybe even every week, the League decides on 1 game (from the premier, west or east) to film a game and look at everything. The way the match is refereed, the assistants, the dugouts, the players, the spectators? That way then, for the sake of improvement, clubs and the league can work together. But then comes the problem; every game is different. If Football League do this for Sky Sports what do you think about the CSWPL doing this is Cornwall. Sport relief was only the other day. Example, games of Good Friday, there are plenty on local areas for spectators. I will probably head along to Torpoint Athletic v Saltash United

[stevieb]

Very good post , when I talk to other supporters about running the line at least nine out of ten say they wouldn't do it  ,  I know passion runs high during games but some dug outs go over the top with appealing for everything  even when it is their player who has been the offender,  I do it because I want to put something back into the game that has given me so much pleasure  , from playing when I was younger to being a manager ,  I still have friends from my playing days , and it always gives you something to talk about  with other players supporters you meet during the week,  perhaps the manager / captains should be included in the prem match briefing  with the ref and linesman,( sorry assistant)  so they can make their teams aware of what is expected  from the linesman , just a thought  ,  

[Mr Cornwall]

Stevie B, what a brilliant idea. In the years I have done this, teams from East and West going to Premier (like Callington against Launceston this week) Callington were not expected to have to allocate their own assistant, neither Launceston. But possibly somebody, in the pre-match brief with the referee can possibly be a representative or perhaps even the referee have a chat beforehand and say, 'this is what I am instructing yours and my club assistant's in todays game. This will stop the likes of manager's saying, 'lino' why didn't you see or give that.' I am not a lino, I am a linesman lol

[Tony B]

Reference the subject of what club assistants can or can't give, it depends on how well the referee knows the assistants ( i.e experience of the assistant ). You can't expect the referee to allow a club assistant to give free kicks/penalties if he has never come across them before ( as the referee has to be comfortable that the assistants can give what could be game changing decisions ). This to protect themselves & the assistants of abuse from players, benches & spectators.

 

[Mr Cornwall]

1 hour ago, The Boy said:

Reference the subject of what club assistants can or can't give, it depends on how well the referee knows the assistants ( i.e experience of the assistant ). You can't expect the referee to allow a club assistant to give free kicks/penalties if he has never come across them before ( as the referee has to be comfortable that the assistants can give what could be game changing decisions ). This to protect themselves & the assistants of abuse from players, benches & spectators.

 

But assistant's would probably give up the flag if they felt they were not protected as abuse will always be had whether or not a decision is given by a club assistant that a Manager does or does not agree with (from both sides). I have given penalty decisions as a club assistant, so are you saying that I should not now if a referee says I should not and then that make me look stupid when I can clearly see that a hand may be used which a referee does not? How do I respond to a question or abuse from a Manager. Raise my flag, call the referee in to say I have been abused because there was or was not a penalty that should of been awarded that I can see but haven't assisted with? How can you respond? Sorry I saw it but I have been instructed opposite otherwise? 

[bighairydave]

2 minutes ago, Mr Cornwall said:

But assistant's would probably give up the flag if they felt they were not protected as abuse will always be had whether or not a decision is given by a club assistant that a Manager does or does not agree with (from both sides). I have given penalty decisions as a club assistant, so are you saying that I should not now if a referee says I should not and then that make me look stupid when I can clearly see that a hand may be used which a referee does not? How do I respond to a question or abuse from a Manager. Raise my flag, call the referee in to say I have been abused because there was or was not a penalty that should of been awarded that I can see but haven't assisted with? How can you respond? Sorry I saw it but I have been instructed opposite otherwise? 

That is the only way you can respond. You are there to assist the referee how they want to be assisted. If they don't want help that's their look out.

[Referee]

SWPL west division this season..............An experienced referee at senior level on one line, various substitutes on the other line who really did not want to do it and were below the standards you would expect at this level. I had to manage the game accordingly. 

Each game has to be approached differently as the circumstances are rarely the same. Some have better capabilities, fitness and experience than others.

I have actually had a penalty awarded for me by the home team's Club Assistant Referee this season in the ECFL. 

Last season I had some very good Assistants in the Duchy League too. Not done any Duchy League yet this season, though. 

Club Assistant Referees need to be supported by everyone at every level - No Ref No Game. 

 

[Tony B]

34 minutes ago, Mr Cornwall said:

But assistant's would probably give up the flag if they felt they were not protected as abuse will always be had whether or not a decision is given by a club assistant that a Manager does or does not agree with (from both sides). I have given penalty decisions as a club assistant, so are you saying that I should not now if a referee says I should not and then that make me look stupid when I can clearly see that a hand may be used which a referee does not? How do I respond to a question or abuse from a Manager. Raise my flag, call the referee in to say I have been abused because there was or was not a penalty that should of been awarded that I can see but haven't assisted with? How can you respond? Sorry I saw it but I have been instructed opposite otherwise? 

I understand what you're saying, but the clue is in the title 'assistant referee'.  We are there to assist the referee, the referee is in charge of the game, if they say for the assistant not to give infringements, then they don't give infringements end of. If either manager questions you, you simply tell them that the referee instructed you not to give it.  You can give decisions until you are blue in the face but the referee will only take notice of what he has instructed you to do.  If the referee knows your capabilities then he will advise you to give everything but some first or rare encounters then he would make the decision of what he expects from the assistant.  

[middle mans mate]

21 hours ago, Keith B said:

According to the match programme, the referee was Dave Harding. One linesman was called Encho Enchev and the other was TBC (?).

As a supporter of Launceston, I thought that the linesmen were ok and generally got it right, as far as a supporter can see sitting in the stand, which is of course limited. The referee got a lot of abuse from the Callington dugout. Especially vociferous was the Callington manager Lee Beer (according to the programme) and the language towards the referee was way over the top and foulmouthed. 

That said, there was a lot of bad language from the players of both teams and, as far a I know this was unchecked by the referee. I stand to be corrected.

Check your facts before making accusations....... Lee Beer played the whole 90mins in midfield!!

Not sure you could tell who was saying what from the opposite side of the ground.

 

[Guest]

Personally, when I referee my brief to the CLUB assistant referees are to flag for corners, throw ins, goal kicks and offsides. I tell them they are to follow my lead. If the ball goes out of play and I see clearly who it has come off, I will not even look at the assistant, I will raise my hand and make the appropriate signal. If I'm not sure who the ball touched last before it has gone out of play, I will always then look to the assistant to give a decision.

For offsides, I've only refereed in a few Navy fixtures, Junior, Youth, Sunday and Women's football so I haven't yet had the luxury of using Neutral assistants (Until tomorrow for a Cornwall vs Plymouth youth fixture). Therefore, the "diagonal line" that referee's are taught to adapt goes out of the window. I'm still fit and fast so I find it easy at this level of refereeing to keep up with play and get into credible positions to call an offide. Again, If a player makes a run and I can see he is clearly onside, I won't even look at the assistant. If there is even 1% of hesitation in my mind, I then look to see if the Club assistant raises the flag. Unfortunately when I first started, my early look up to a linesman has given him/her the impression I want them to flag and so some offisides have been called incorrectly. Therefore, I don't look at the Club assistant unless there is a doubt in my mind.

With neutral assistants (qualified referee's), I would normally take their every decision. They would also be responsible for penalising players within their respective area of responsibility.

Unfortunately at the level I referee at the moment, we only have the luxury of having managers/players running the line. Sometimes they make decisions (which are wrong) to benefit their team. As soon as that happens, I begin to lose faith. I could probably name on one hand the people I would trust to make every call correctly down in the Trelawny Leagues. 

[middle mans mate]

2 hours ago, Dange'rous said:

Personally, when I referee my brief to the CLUB assistant referees are to flag for corners, throw ins, goal kicks and offsides. I tell them they are to follow my lead. If the ball goes out of play and I see clearly who it has come off, I will not even look at the assistant, I will raise my hand and make the appropriate signal. If I'm not sure who the ball touched last before it has gone out of play, I will always then look to the assistant to give a decision.

For offsides, I've only referee'd in a few Navy fixtures, Junior, Youth, Sunday and Women's football so I haven't yet had the luxury of using Neutral assistants. Therefore, the "diagonal line" that referee's are taught to adapt goes out of the window. I'm still fit and fast so I find it easy at this level of refereeing to keep up with play and get into credible positions to call an offide. Again, If a player makes a run and I can see he is clearly onside, I won't even look at the assistant. If there is even 1% of hesitation in my mind, I then look to see if the Club assistant raises the flag. Unfortunately when I first started, my early look up to a linesman has given him/her the impression I want them to flag and so some offisides have been called incorrectly. Therefore, I don't look at the Club assistant unless there is a doubt in my mind.

With neutral assistants (qualified referee's), I would normally take their every decision. They would also be responsible for penalising players within their respective area of responsibility.

Unfortunately at the level I referee at the moment, we only have the luxury of having managers/players running the line. Sometimes they make decisions (which are wrong) to benefit their team. As soon as that happens, I begin to lose faith. I could probably name on one hand the people I would trust to make every call correctly down in the Trelawny Leagues. 

So what you're saying is, they cheat?.....

[Guest]

Call it what you will.

From my experience thus far, SOME will make decisons that make the game easier for their team. Some make decsions based on their lack of knowledge of the Laws. 

You can call that what you will; I have certainly seen club assistant referees in my time playing that I would deem to be cheating. If they make a decision which is incorrect, they know it's incorrect but they still make that decision with the aim to benefit their team... What else would you call it? 

 

[bighairydave]

2 hours ago, Dange'rous said:

Call it what you will.

From my experience thus far, SOME will make decisons that make the game easier for their team. Some make decsions based on their lack of knowledge of the Laws. 

You can call that what you will; I have certainly seen club assistant referees in my time playing that I would deem to be cheating. If they make a decision which is incorrect, they know it's incorrect but they still make that decision with the aim to benefit their team... What else would you call it? 

 

I think some make wrong decisions because they genuinely don't know the laws too! That is a big problem with some assistants.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, bighairydave said:

I think some make wrong decisions because they genuinely don't know the laws too! That is a big problem with some assistants.

Spot on! The change to the laws recently hasn't helped "Is the player interfereing with play" seems to confuse alot of people. That depends on the interpretation.

They are about to change the laws again just in time for the Euro's. Offside is again being changed, aswell as the triple jeopardy situation (Player sent off for Denying Obvious Goalscoring Opportunity, Penalty kick and goal). 

Once these changes are made, implemented, documented and released; I'll be writing a thread to explain the changes. Last season (as a player) I had no idea of the new offside law (interpretation) until 3/4 games into the season... It was only because I questioned a referee's decision. The ref then explained the change briefly to me. 

This is exactly why I encourage players at all levels to have a read of the Laws, many would be surprised about how little they actually know; I certainly was.

[Tony B]

3 hours ago, bighairydave said:

I think some make wrong decisions because they genuinely don't know the laws too! That is a big problem with some assistants.

From experiences I've had this season, it's a lot of the players & managers that don't know the laws either

 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

On ‎22‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 11:32, Dange'rous said:

Call it what you will.

From my experience thus far, SOME will make decisons that make the game easier for their team. Some make decsions based on their lack of knowledge of the Laws. 

You can call that what you will; I have certainly seen club assistant referees in my time playing that I would deem to be cheating. If they make a decision which is incorrect, they know it's incorrect but they still make that decision with the aim to benefit their team... What else would you call it? 

 

If I were you buddy, I'd call it all a mistake, made in the best possible taste.

As a referee,keep your own counsel on the other word, and deal with it in your head - not on here.

Myself I call that type of lino - reliable.

 

[Guest]

I'm speaking as a fan of football and from my experience, I'm not talking as a player or a referee. My posts on this thread are also directed at the lower leagues, where subs, managers etc are in possession of the flag.

Older, are you telling me that if a club linesman is clearly cheating, you wouldn't call it that? You'd say he's reliable and making a mistake?

Afraid not my ol' mucker... Some people who run the lines do clearly cheat in order to benefit their team. Yeah you don't get many of them, but they are about.

Its always easy to see who's made a mistake, misunderstands the laws or/and may just be a bit ill-informed. 

Dont be naive to think and believe that they aren't cheating, especially if it's obvious that they are.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

You didn't understand my post did you.

[Guest]

I'm guessing not ?

[Richard Rundle]

One other point is that the original club linesmen to get to hear the referee's pre-match instructions, but if they are subs and chop and change throughout the 90 minutes, the replacement linesmen don't, and then do whatever they think is best.

[Mr Cornwall]

What  do you defy as a 'cheat' anyway?

Somebody who thinks there is an offside and an official who think's he or she may be offside and gives/does not give it? It is the same question I have asked myself in games that I have not officiated in but have watched on the basis of club linesman being at the centre of attention to everything that may change a game; The linesman has just flagged an offside that wasn't, so will the other assistant do the same in order to make them equal? If it comes to it why don't all referee's be assessed as well as club's assistants assessed once or twice in a season just to get their overall feedback and assessment. For example the Mousehole v PAFC Reserves game a referee assessor was there and entered the officials room at the end of the game to give his assessments as well as offer opinions on the assistants on the pitch

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Mr Cornwall said:

What  do you defy as a 'cheat' anyway?

Somebody who thinks there is an offside and an official who think's he or she may be offside and gives/does not give it? It is the same question I have asked myself in games that I have not officiated in but have watched on the basis of club linesman being at the centre of attention to everything that may change a game; The linesman has just flagged an offside that wasn't, so will the other assistant do the same in order to make them equal? If it comes to it why don't all referee's be assessed as well as club's assistants assessed once or twice in a season just to get their overall feedback and assessment. For example the Mousehole v PAFC Reserves game a referee assessor was there and entered the officials room at the end of the game to give his assessments as well as offer opinions on the assistants on the pitch

Referees regularly get assessed, it's one of the prerequisites for promotion up the ladder.

My definition of a cheat in this situation is where an linesman (not an assistant referee, which is the term is use for a qualified (neutral) referee on the line) deliberately flags incorrectly in order to deceive the referee Into making a call that would benefit his team. With that said, you also get some linesman who are fantastic and do a great job. So, it kinda evens itself out.

As a referee, I've not yet had to deal with a linesman who I thought could be making decisions to benefit his side. As a player, already this season I have seen three instances where linesmans calls repeatedly had a negative impact on the game. 1 was definitely cheating, another made a few rubbish calls (usually offside) and the other I believe just didn't understand the laws. 

I suppose that's what you get playing in division 5 though, who wants to become running a line down there anyway!

[Tony B]

When a referee gets assessed, does the assistant ( club assistant ) get assessed as well? if not, should they?

 

[bighairydave]

12 hours ago, The Boy said:

When a referee gets assessed, does the assistant ( club assistant ) get assessed as well? if not, should they?

 

The assessor may pass on any comments if they want to but there is nothing official. Only at Premier level or where assistants are neutral are they assessed by a CFA/Supply League assessor.

[Tony B]

20 minutes ago, bighairydave said:

The assessor may pass on any comments if they want to but there is nothing official. Only at Premier level or where assistants are neutral are they assessed by a CFA/Supply League assessor.

Do you think it's something that could be introduced, even it's only initially done at senior football where club assistants ( who should be qualified ) are used,