SWPL/ Toolstation League takeover/merge

[The Observer__]

Have heard rumours on the jungle drums of talks taking place about a merger/takeover between the two leagues. 

[Paul]

Think that would be very good for local football. 

[Ian Pethick]

Very interesting, but I cannot understand what the motivation is. From what I hear, clubs are very happy with the Peninsula League and how it is run.

Setting that aside (and to stimulate a conversation), had a thought that maybe it could be structured in the way below;

Western Premier West (predominantly Cornwall and Devon clubs)

Western Premier East (predominantly Somerset, Dorset, Bristol area)

(End of season playoffs to determine promotion/relegation places)

with Western Div One West and Western Div One East along the same lines.

How this affects the feeder leagues below is obviously one issue (very big leap up from St Pirans for example). Also, we're back to the stumbling block of travelling and the associated problems. The possibility of Penzance to Sidmouth for example.

Loads and loads of talking points and issues within this though.

[Town Fan]

Like WOTP, I'm not sure where the gains are here.  The current structure seems popular with the clubs and the recent reorganisation hasn't really had time to be tested yet.  Perhaps Dave will put the question to Phil for this Friday's podcast?  Will be interesting to know.

[Gary Hocking]

If there is a change I’ll try to stay neutral until the details are shared but two preliminary thoughts - the “one promotion place only from each of Peninsula East and West” might make sense (and, I know, it was the clubs’ choice) but as a fan I’d love to see some playoffs introduced, and second any change should be conditional on Phil Hiscox having a similar or larger role - the man’s a legend. 

[The Town Man]

Are the opportunities for large grants enhanced as you go up the football pyramid?  It may help all clubs in this way if they rise a level from step 6 to step 5.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

4 minutes ago, The Town Man said:

Are the opportunities for large grants enhanced as you go up the football pyramid?  It may help all clubs in this way if they rise a level from step 6 to step 5.

Yes, the Grants rise substantially as you climb the pyramid. 

What is it now in the premiership...£60,000,000 if you're relegated! 

[Dave Deacon]

1 hour ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

What is it now in the premiership...£60,000,000 if you're relegated! 

Always seems crazy to me that a club gets paid so much for getting relegated!

[Easterfield]

This may be something to do with a vague long-term possibility (nothing more than that) of the Peninsula League taking over what is currently the Western Premier. That could make sense should there be a willingness on behalf of those involved.

Think of the National League System (non league steps 1 to 6) as now being a franchise system. The Western League currently looks after the step 5 division for the first twenty clubs up the peninsula from Land’s End. 

Once twenty clubs have been plotted on the map there’s a two-way split. The next twenty clubs towards Gloucestershire and Wiltshire are the Hellenic; those towards Dorset and Hampshire are the Wessex.

That leaves thirteen step 5 leagues across the rest of the country. These are run by eleven different league organisations with two (the Combined Counties and the United Counties) each having two leagues split north/south.

It doesn’t take much imagination for the Peninsula to take over what is now the Western Premier and for the Western to run the current Hellenic Premier. With a little bit of rejigging the Hellenic could take over one of the Combined Counties’ leagues.

Not saying this will happen. Just a thought, It wouldn’t necessarily make any difference to structures; it’s more a case of who runs what.    

 

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

2 hours ago, Dave Deacon said:

Always seems crazy to me that a club gets paid so much for getting relegated!

Some of the promoted teams have said in the past that relegation wiped out their debts and one season will do for them.

I can hardly watch the premiership anymore for the cheating and the utter rubbish that is VAR.

[Ian Pethick]

4 minutes ago, TheolderIgetthebetterIwas said:

Some of the promoted teams have said in the past that relegation wiped out their debts and one season will do for them.

I can hardly watch the premiership anymore for the cheating and the utter rubbish that is VAR.

If a season in the Premiership wipes out their debts, then why do so many become financial bin fires after relegation? Thinking Derby County, Wigan and Sunderland (plus many others).

Gave up on the Premiership and Champions League a few seasons back and, do you know what, haven't missed them one bit. There is plenty of football to be enjoyed outside of these gilded palaces.

[6times]

7 hours ago, Way Of The Park said:

Very interesting, but I cannot understand what the motivation is. From what I hear, clubs are very happy with the Peninsula League and how it is run.

Setting that aside (and to stimulate a conversation), had a thought that maybe it could be structured in the way below;

Western Premier West (predominantly Cornwall and Devon clubs)

Western Premier East (predominantly Somerset, Dorset, Bristol area)

(End of season playoffs to determine promotion/relegation places)

with Western Div One West and Western Div One East along the same lines.

How this affects the feeder leagues below is obviously one issue (very big leap up from St Pirans for example). Also, we're back to the stumbling block of travelling and the associated problems. The possibility of Penzance to Sidmouth for example.

Loads and loads of talking points and issues within this though.

Western premier west sounds good and doable travel wise , so essentially it’ll be going back 30-40 years to jswl. 

[We Two]

3 minutes ago, Way Of The Park said:

If a season in the Premiership wipes out their debts, then why do so many become financial bin fires after relegation?

Same old chestnut i'm afraid ( not that it would happen in local football ) the wages paid to attract players to a Premiership team cannot be sustained if that team is relegated to a lower division, or are struggling to win a few games, hence the relegation money.
Having signed a 2/3 year contract, it's likely that a player will still expect to continue to be paid Premiership wages and the probable income from smaller crowds and lower admission prices will soon mean that the so called parachute payment that Older referred to, will quickly disappear.

It's commonly called living above your means and the end result is not very palatable.

[TheolderIgetthebetterIwas]

1 hour ago, Way Of The Park said:

If a season in the Premiership wipes out their debts, then why do so many become financial bin fires after relegation? Thinking Derby County, Wigan and Sunderland (plus many others).

Gave up on the Premiership and Champions League a few seasons back and, do you know what, haven't missed them one bit. There is plenty of football to be enjoyed outside of these gilded palaces.

Because they take the wage structure down with them and don't deal with it quickly enough.

They clear their historical debts but soon rack them up again through bad business acumen. 

[Quiet Man]

Why don't these clubs when they sign a player be a bit canny with the contract details? Yes, you get paid this much basic and whilst in the league when you signed,  you get so much enhanced pay. Get promotion and you get more, but with relegation you drop to the basic wage....and no jumping ship if the club gets relegated because you, sonny, are part of the problem. Don't like it, don't sign, but if all the clubs stuck together I think that it may work. 

[Dave Deacon]

22 minutes ago, Quiet Man said:

Why don't these clubs when they sign a player be a bit canny with the contract details? Yes, you get paid this much basic and whilst in the league when you signed,  you get so much enhanced pay. Get promotion and you get more, but with relegation you drop to the basic wage....and no jumping ship if the club gets relegated because you, sonny, are part of the problem. Don't like it, don't sign, but if all the clubs stuck together I think that it may work. 

Would make sense. The players get rewarded for obtaining promotion, likewise they should lose out if relegated! 

[sportsman10]

34 minutes ago, Dave Deacon said:

Would make sense. The players get rewarded for obtaining promotion, likewise they should lose out if relegated! 

Surly that only going to happen if you get players on a proper signed contract for a season  can’t see that ever happen mind.  what if a player wants to move on mid season ?  and so you get relagated the manager leaves or us sacked yet  you expect all the players to stay on regardless  ??  

[Quiet Man]

Was talking about the professional game where players have contracts. Non contract players are masters of their own destiny,  so to speak. 

[Easterfield]

This discussion has now spread to a thread entitled “Restructure in the South West” on the Non League Matters website:  https://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forums/index.php?threads/restructure-in-the-south-west.6773/

None of those contributions are mine. Nor am I sure how much I understand or see as likely.  My contribution might be to ask what if  the FA applied the precedent that’s already been created at step 6 to step 5?

The “pure” intention at step 6 would have been 16 leagues of 20 clubs. That would have created 320 clubs on a map of England split 16 ways.

Instead we have 17 leagues with the Peninsula split to effectively operate as leagues 16a and 16b. This is adjusted by the two Peninsula leagues having one promotion spot each rather than the usual two. That means a countrywide map of up to 340 clubs split 17 ways.

Were this to be repeated at step 5, this is where any idea of a “split” Western League might come into play.  Presumably it would be the same idea again? National numbers balanced by each of the two Western leagues only having one promotion opportunity.  Loss of a promotion opportunity is likely to go down less well with those clubs within twenty miles of Bristol than those in Devon and Cornwall. The “trade off” would be no trips for them west of much beyond Clevedon. Hmm....

To follow the precedent the FA, remembering there are vacancies elsewhere in the system, would need to find at least 20 extra clubs to create a structure of up to 340 step 5 clubs split 17 ways.  

The first thought is that all these extra clubs would come from the south-west. That might over-egg the pudding so, if you apply precedent again, the clubs are likely to come from all over the country with a disproportionate dollop from the SW. For example, sixteen clubs reprieved from relegation from each of the existing step 5 leagues - plus four extra one-off promotions from the Peninsula -  would make 20. The idea is to somehow get 340 clubs on the map before drawing boundaries.

Four additional promotions alone would make a considerable difference in moving any E/W (on N/S) split in our direction. It would, of course, affect clubs in leagues elsewhere and have a knock-on effect all the way to Northumberland.  Mind you, that wouldn't be for the first time.

I’ve no insight on this at all. It’s just a case of speculating what might happen if precedent was applied.       

 

 

 

[baldy]

Just a minor correction to the above .. Step 6 should be 32 leagues, not 16.

[Easterfield]

You got me checking there, Baldy,  because there was talk of a "perfect pyramid" - 1-2-4-8-16-32 - at steps 1 to 6. Eventually it was decided 32 would be too many at step 6 so it became 1-2-4-8-16-16. The "Peninsula compromise" changed this to 1-2-4-8-16-17.

The bulking-up precedent I mentioned earlier referred to when extra leagues were put in at steps 4 and 5. The precedent for creating Peninsula E and W was to find the extra clubs locally. In other words get from 320 to 340 on the national step 6 map by solely adding Cornwall and Devon clubs.

Do this at step 5 and ground grading would be messy to say the least.  But the basic principle, once relegation from and promotion to the league above had been decided, would see the number of Cornwall and Devon step 5 clubs increase to around 28-30. Take twenty west and place the remainder east with the next 10-12 Western Premier clubs up the M5. That would suit the Bristol area clubs with regard to travel but probably not impress clubs in Western 1.  It still leaves the prospect of just one promotion place.

Doing it this way may sound more logical than what I said earlier about only finding a certain number of clubs locally. But the second way could possibly damage the step 6 Peninsula League beyond repair. You might need to look at in-between options where PPG is used to reprieve clubs elsewhere.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here based upon what I'm reading elsewhere which may (or may not) include informed speculation. The interesting thing is what The Observer heard four weeks ago may be gathering momentum. I can't say any pf this looks emcouraging.

Also, in amongst the material elsewhere, there's a suggestion (nothing more) of three Peninsula divisions at step 6: West, Central and East. That makes no sense to me unless the eastern section is the current Western 1.

If you use that logic, it means the Western League having step 5 responsibility for the wider SW region (two sections); the Peninsula running step 6 for practically the same area (three sections). Not sure why you'd do it that way; there are alternatives. On the other hand, in a system that is devised by the FA but others are required to run, there may be compromise and horse trading.